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Request: Combat How Tos

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Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Octavius » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:34 pm

There will be a Gruff Sergeant in the guest lounge combat training area who will help new players learn the basics of MUD combat gameplay.

I'll solicit here for input; crowd-sourcing this amongst you experienced folk will make my life a lot easier. :)

Anyone who wants to write a bit that could be used for this purpose (write in first person by the sergeant), here are topic areas.


  • How to use Dual-Wield and Sole-Wield commands
  • How and when to set combat stances when alone or in teamwork
  • How to use guard, rescue, and group commands
  • How to wield, load, scan, aim a bow
  • How to use the cover and overwatch commands
  • How to sneak and hide, basics
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Octavius » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:52 am

*bump*

Anyone?
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Letters » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:07 pm

I'll do something up a little later today.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Khamul » Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:57 pm

I took the scouting one, then promptly forgot to actually do it. I'll probably have a version to send you within the next three days, though!
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Hawkwind » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:35 pm

I would volenteer to do a bit of stuff about teamworm, there will not be much in the way of coded references as i know sod all about it. Woukd that be at all useful, some 'fluff'?
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Matt » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:58 pm

Hide/Sneak

Stealth on Shadows of Isildur is based on two different skills. While sneak isn't required for stealth it is what determines your chance of success moving from room to room. Hide is required and it also unlocks the option for sneak. If you don't have either skill you will first need to unlock hide at a minimum of beginner before you can start gaining skill in sneak.

The hide skill covers a few things in stealth. If you do an action in a room with either a PC or NPC, a skill check is rolled against hide to determine if you're revealed or not. That means talking, getting something, aiming in with a bow, drawing a weapon, pretty much anything you do short of scanning. Hide is also the skill that is rolled against for ambush attacks while... hidden. When hide is at beginner you are also able to sneak. Though sneaking from room to room is rolled against the sneak skill, not hide. The higher your skill in hide the faster you'll hide.

The sneak skill purely determines your success in moving from room to room without detection. The higher your skill in sneak the more likely you are to successfully sneak around NPCs/PCs. The sneak skill is only checked when sneaking out of or into a room with NPCs/PCs. So if it's paramount you stay hidden in whatever you're doing your best bet is not sneaking through rooms that are occupied as you won't be revealed. Beware other hidden things! If you're revealed by Bob the Hunter in one room you'll be revealed to everything and everyone you're within sight of.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Matt » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:00 am

Hope that's what you're looking for tried not to get to overly in depth. I can do stances tomorrow if no one has yet.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Letters » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:18 pm

I appear to have gone and forgotten my password to get in the guest lounge and go check the guy out, but assuming you just want some speech that will be set off by a prog, here we go.

Fighting styles
"There are two main fighting styles, which we call DUAL-WIELDing and SOLE-WIELD-ing. Dual-wield encompasses the use of a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other, as well as using a proper weapon in one hand and a smaller one in the other. Sole-wielding involves using just a single weapon, without a shield, whether you are holding it with one hand or both."

"When sole-wielding, you can GRIP a weapon with BOTH hands, so you can hit things harder, though if you want to free up a hand, simply GRIP the weapon with a SINGLE hand again."

"Knowing a style skill will both help to make you more effective when fighting with that style, as well as when fighting against others using that style."

"If you are sufficiently skilled - at least Talented in a given style - then you will gain the ability to use certain special commands. When sole-wielding, you can WARD away your opponents - this will put the person you were fighting off-balance, as well as forcing all but one of your attackers away from you, giving you perhaps a moment's respite before they attack you again. But be careful - you can be left off-balance yourself. When you have a shield in hand, you can attempt to BASH an opponent with it, potentially bruising them. Be even more careful when trying to bash an opponent, since it can cause you to fall over, and be entirely vulnerable."

Stances
"There are six combat stances, which you can change to by using one of SET DEFENSIVE, CAREFUL, NORMAL, AGGRESSIVE, or FRANTIC, as well as SET PACIFIST."

"Generally, when on the move in a potentially hostile region, you may be best off in a defensive stance, or possibly careful. This will allow you to keep yourself safe if you are ambushed, and give you time to assess the situation, whether you want to stand and fight, or to turn tail and run."

"If in a fight where you feel evenly matched, and confident of your ability to keep yourself safe without focusing on it, go ahead and fight in a normal stance."

"If grossly outmatched, and in a situation where you simply have no chance of slaying a foe to stop them, it may become desirable to fight in a pacifist stance while you try to escape. You will not cause any harm to your opponent while doing this, but will be more able to keep yourself safe. To leave a pacifist stance, you simply SET PACIFIST again, which will allow you to return attacks once more, although you will enter a defensive stance initially."

"If you are with friends, and they have your back, and nothing is going to turn on you and try to cause you harm, it may be safe to set yourself into an aggressive stance."

"Unless you really want to go into a blind rage and give up any hope of coming home without horrible injuries, fighting in a frantic fashion is ill-advised, since, while it does allow you to cause some harm, you won't have any chance whatsoever to try and defend yourself - none. Every blow aimed at you will hit home."

"When switching stances, bear in mind that you will unbalance yourself, and take a few moments to recover. This period of being off-balance will make you less effective in a fight for a few seconds - although not to such an extent that it should be a concern unless you repeatedly switch stances during combat - as well as preventing you from switching stances again, engaging other opponents, or rescuing friends."

Rescuing others
"If someone is being attacked, you can try to RESCUE them. This will put you in harm's way, instead. Be careful that you aren't too badly hurt already, yourself."

"If you want, you can also GUARD a person, which will enable you to persistently try to get between them and any danger. Be particularly careful with this - you may rapidly find yourself overwhelmed if there is a considerable number of foes, and you go and throw yourself in front of all of them."

"When you want to check out what sort of condition another is in - certainly useful if you need to work out if a friend even really needs help, you can DIAGNOSE them. If you are with even a small number of others, it always helps to keep an eye on your GROUP."

"Keep in mind that rescuing a friend will set you off-balance, making you less effective in combat for a short period, and you may eventually find yourself too unbalanced to be able to properly rescue anyone, to engage in combat again, or to change your fighting stance. These penalties only last for brief periods, and are not drastic, but should be kept in mind, in case you do something to unbalance yourself, such as changing your stance, and then find yourself unable to help a companion in need."




I could do bows, but is it using Lost Tales of Beleriand code, old Shadows of Isildur code, or redone Atonement code? The former had some neat stuff with stringing bows to imbue a sense of realism into it, and to stop the old, old "sniping" stuff too. Atonement didn't have bows, of course, and the way aim worked was different. There was set autofire, too.

Overwatch is an arcane art. I don't think I ever used it.

Should probably also do something about bind and about balance.

Edit: added bash and ward. Feint is useless except in specific borderline cases, so I left it out. Added stuff on balance, but perhaps it should be in its own section.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Octavius » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:25 pm

Thanks, that's on the right track, Letters.

We need to convert Matt's input to the first-person style and can use that, too.

For Bows, it will be a modified version of ARPI firearms. If you can use the cover and overwatch ideas from there (but applied to bows), that would be good.


I'm also open to any other lectures that a Battalion Sergeant would have given in SOI2. As this test area in the guest lounge will be remaining in existence, it will be a good place to send new players so they can both speed up the learning curve but also see an example of combat play.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Matt » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:47 pm

No one I know really ever used overwatch, it was pretty complicated I think.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Throttle » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:44 am

Some people used it and it was pretty strong for guns. I don't really know how well it applies to bows and crossbows, but aside from being pretty tricky to get the hang of, overwatch worked quite well. I never actually figured it out myself, though.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby tehkory » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:46 pm

Throttle wrote:Some people used it and it was pretty strong for guns. I don't really know how well it applies to bows and crossbows, but aside from being pretty tricky to get the hang of, overwatch worked quite well. I never actually figured it out myself, though.


I can't name one person who actually used it, or any situations it which it made any sort of difference. Given the lack of automatic or even multi-shot weapons, I'd be even more surprised if it was any more useful. I think the improved ranged combat code(autofire, both for point-blank defense and escaping enemies) is actually more fit for medieval combat than it is for Atonement/Parallel's post-apocalyptic worlds.

Not entirely on topic, but if something grants significant advantages but is so complicated that nine out of ten players can't figure it out...it's probably a bad feature. Part of the appeal of RPIs is that player knowledge shouldn't/doesn't grant significant advantages compared to character skill. The character matters, hopefully/ideally more than the player's OOC knowledge of the code. Maybe the overwatch you're describing would fit in a different game, but if it's at all strong(I'm unconvinced), it should either be simplified or removed. But at the end of the day I'm pretty sure overwatch is probably just overcomplicated. I can't recommend it. Autofire, though, I'll write something up on.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Throttle » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:58 pm

Well, I saw a few people use it. It can be very effective for PvP with guns as it allows you to automatically take aim at distant targets or react to incoming fire. The main obstacle in translating it into bows and arrows is the fact that it was designed for use with weapons that have magazines and function in a way that better justifies quick reflex shots.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby tehkory » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:37 pm

Throttle wrote:Well, I saw a few people use it. It can be very effective for PvP with guns as it allows you to automatically take aim at distant targets or react to incoming fire. The main obstacle in translating it into bows and arrows is the fact that it was designed for use with weapons that have magazines and function in a way that better justifies quick reflex shots.


My sentiment exactly. Hopefully whoever knows how to use it can add to whatever ranged guide shows up. Before I can do anything that's going to be worth reading(I'd like to!), I need Staff to answer a few questions.

Maximum/ideal ranges. SoI had maximum/ideal ranges that differed from weapon to weapon. ARPI had ideal ranges, but every gun had the same maximum range, though they did vary in their ideals. How does the code reflect the maximum/ideal weapons of the ranged options?

Crossbows(and slings?): Crossbows can be carried about loaded. Bows can't. Slings could, I suppose. They all need prep/aiming time. How does the code reflect this?

Reload time: This should vary from weapon to weapon, of course, but does it?

Cover and cover objects: From Holmes, I've been told cover objects don't do shit and that a player shouldn't use them. Otherwise, I've definitely noticed cover has an affect. Has cover been changed to incorporate objects(thus affecting tactics), or does it remain simply 'cover direction/room'?

Trauma/damage/bleeding: Firearms were intended to deal damage via trauma and bleeding rather than direct force. In the Laketown setting, how does ranged warfare deal damage? A sling bullet is of course blunt force and trauma more than bleeding, but what threat do bolts and arrows represent?

ETA: And I suppose to throw a bone to something that wasn't very good on ARPI's codebase: throwing weapons? Have these been fixed at all to deal any sort of 'real' damage?
If I have any more I'll add them, but I think these few questions/answers will likely be enough for me(or anyone else) to transfer over their SoI/Atonement knowledge to the new ranged system.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Octavius » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:01 pm

tehkory wrote:Maximum/ideal ranges. SoI had maximum/ideal ranges that differed from weapon to weapon. ARPI had ideal ranges, but every gun had the same maximum range, though they did vary in their ideals. How does the code reflect the maximum/ideal weapons of the ranged options?


Assume it is like ARPI. Assume we'll have the same max range. Any choices about ideal ranges will be announced by Nimrod after his tweaks to this code are complete.

tehkory wrote:Crossbows(and slings?): Crossbows can be carried about loaded. Bows can't. Slings could, I suppose. They all need prep/aiming time. How does the code reflect this?


A loaded bow means that you are holding the bow and arrow with two hands and ready to fire. It does not mean you're holding it drawn in some silly pose, waiting for your arm strength to give out. A loaded bow is acceptable with two hands, waiting to draw-and-fire.

tehkory wrote:Reload time: This should vary from weapon to weapon, of course, but does it?


It will in a realistic way. To be announced by Nimrod.

tehkory wrote:Cover and cover objects: From Holmes, I've been told cover objects don't do shit and that a player shouldn't use them. Otherwise, I've definitely noticed cover has an affect. Has cover been changed to incorporate objects(thus affecting tactics), or does it remain simply 'cover direction/room'?


We asked Nimrod to check this one. He confirms that cover objects do indeed work to provide cover in the direction(s) specified on the objects.

Cover is largely still defined by room, and you're free to emote and pmote taking cover in various ways based on the natural terrain of the room description. Most rooms will allow you to take cover from only one direction at a time. Rooms with plentiful concealments may allow you to take cover from two or three directions at one time.

Cover is a critical feature, providing solid protection against incoming arrow fire, but putting you in a sitting position that hinders other combat.

tehkory wrote:Trauma/damage/bleeding: Firearms were intended to deal damage via trauma and bleeding rather than direct force. In the Laketown setting, how does ranged warfare deal damage? A sling bullet is of course blunt force and trauma more than bleeding, but what threat do bolts and arrows represent?


There will be no slings.

Arrows will work like bullets did on ARPI. Realistically, an arrow functions by hemorrhagic bleeding more than bullets. Broadhead arrows will do more bleeding but be ineffective against armor. Bodkin arrows will do less bleeding but be more effective against armor. Regular arrows will be in-between. Regular metal-tipped arrows will be the normal ordinary-type arrow. Flint-tipped and bone-tipped will be additional poor-quality arrows for orcs. Sharpened wood arrows will be poor-quality for both sides, but inexpensive for the beginner, like on old SOI.

tehkory wrote:ETA: And I suppose to throw a bone to something that wasn't very good on ARPI's codebase: throwing weapons? Have these been fixed at all to deal any sort of 'real' damage?


We don't expect this to be modified from ARPI. But, I don't know what the complaint is. Elaborate?
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Nimrod » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:19 pm

Octavius wrote:A loaded bow means that you are holding the bow and arrow with two hands and ready to fire. It does not mean you're holding it drawn in some silly pose, waiting for your arm strength to give out. A loaded bow is acceptable with two hands, waiting to draw-and-fire.

This is correct. I always hated it when someone would yell at me in the past for running around with a loaded bow. Their idea of what it meant was vastly different from what I thought it meant and you couldn't change their mind.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Nimrod » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:24 pm

Octavius wrote:
tehkory wrote:Reload time: This should vary from weapon to weapon, of course, but does it?


It will in a realistic way. To be announced by Nimrod.

Currently all load times are the same. This will likely be the case still when we open for Alpha. BUT. I will be updating this soon to take into account the weapon type.

Reloading a trebuchet (yes they exist), should not happen as quickly as a blowgun (yes they exist too) or a ballista (woot woot! these exist too!).
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Nimrod » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:35 pm

Octavius wrote:
tehkory wrote:ETA: And I suppose to throw a bone to something that wasn't very good on ARPI's codebase: throwing weapons? Have these been fixed at all to deal any sort of 'real' damage?


We don't expect this to be modified from ARPI. But, I don't know what the complaint is. Elaborate?


Throwing code currently sucks when it comes to dealing real damage right now. Yes. It will continue to suck until we get all the other items required for a successful Alpha launch completed.

The long-range plan for this is to make them much deadlier. I mean if you throw a spear at someone and it lodges in their gut, it should hurt. Currently you can never get a lodger when an item is thrown (at least with all the testing I've done). This will change. Eventually.

As for slings. Code will support them and they may be built and used with no problem. It's just a matter of choice as to whether or not we want to provide them or not. The way they function will be slightly different than the old days, but everything is in place.

One thing that we may also modify slightly is the 'snap shot'. i.e. shooting at things without aiming. You snap shot at ranged and non-ranged folk right now, but take a horrific penalty for not aiming. I've tested this hundreds of times and have yet to hit anything I've shot at. I may tweak this a bit so you have at least a chance of hitting something, but once again, this won't happen until well after we're open for Alpha.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Nimrod » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:46 pm

tehkory wrote:Maximum/ideal ranges. SoI had maximum/ideal ranges that differed from weapon to weapon. ARPI had ideal ranges, but every gun had the same maximum range, though they did vary in their ideals. How does the code reflect the maximum/ideal weapons of the ranged options?

Good questions. The issue here is a balance of playability and reality. With rooms ranging in size from 20 feet to a full mile we have to suspend our notion of what is possible when it comes to ranged combat. If we spend too much time thinking things like: "Hey! He just shot an arrow three miles and hit that guy! That's not very realistic!", well... then we'll be thinking negative thoughts all the time and if we only allowed realistic length shots, then you'd only be able to shoot at folks in the same room as you.

We, (hopefully all of us), instead choose to accept these inconsistencies and play the game, accepting these odd facts as fact. Which is what we must do in order to have fun.

The firearm code has morphed a lot over the last four months. We've got the ability to support any type of ranged combat you can imagine. Mortars anyone? ICBMS? We could do it if we wanted to. With ease.

Realistically though, we're limited by how far we can 'scan'. All weapons have the same max range capability at the moment, but this may change, depending on what Frigga and Icarus want.

tehkory wrote:Crossbows(and slings?): Crossbows can be carried about loaded. Bows can't. Slings could, I suppose. They all need prep/aiming time. How does the code reflect this?

Currently crossbows cannot be carried around loaded. When you remove it from a wielded position, you automatically unload it. This will change to allow you to keep it loaded if you so choose, but once again, this may happen sometime after we open for Alpha. It's on my list. Once I get the crossbow situation sorted, then making slings follow suit is simple.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby tehkory » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:49 pm

Summing things up:
All weapons go to the maximum possible range, which is three rooms(as far as one can see).
Reload time: TBA by Nimrod, unimplemented for Alpha.
Cover objects work/will be in-game. Cover remains as in Atonement/Parallel otherwise.
Arrows rely not on the raw force/mass of the arrow, but instead on trauma/bleeding out.
Siege combat/slings/blowguns may be implemented after Alpha(?).
Throwing weapons suck and will suck for Alpha. Non-viable.

With all that answered, I'll finish a ranged combat guide tomorrow night. Now on to informing/opining.

Currently you can never get a lodger when an item is thrown (at least with all the testing I've done). This will change. Eventually.

'Feature'/bug/anti-abuse. When a weapon is lodged, it disappears. Removing it creates a new item, which has none of the damage the previous item had. Circumvents wear & tear, hence Kithrater removed lodging.

Arrows will work like bullets did on ARPI. Realistically, an arrow functions by hemorrhagic bleeding more than bullets.

Maybe so, but it also includes more -mass- to deal actual physical damage. The balance is more even than ARPI's bullets, and I'd say it deserves -some- tweaking(even if not for Alpha).

RE:'carried.' I meant 'worn.' Inaccurate statement on my part, but the question's still answered.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Letters » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:13 am

Haven't had the time to add more to that myself. As suggested, I'll probably add a note on trauma.

I don't really like the idea of arrows functioning in a similar fashion to Atonement's bullets. The constant bleeding/binding when a lot of guns were going off was one big hassle. I would much prefer to see plain old direct damage.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby tehkory » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:19 pm

Letters wrote:Haven't had the time to add more to that myself. As suggested, I'll probably add a note on trauma.

I don't really like the idea of arrows functioning in a similar fashion to Atonement's bullets. The constant bleeding/binding when a lot of guns were going off was one big hassle. I would much prefer to see plain old direct damage.

Realism aside, this honestly would make combat a -whole- lot smother.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Throttle » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:56 am

Much of the danger of guns was the possibility of essentially inflicting two wounds, an entry and an exit, with one shot. If a bullet merely lodged, it typically didn't do all that much damage and could be bound fairly easily. Since bleeding damage generally isn't immediately fatal and bullets did very little health damage unless you hit a vital point, the way people usually died - outside of headshots - was a couple of lucky shots resulting in twice as many gushers which couldn't always be bound in time, especially if there was still fighting going on.

It would be very strange for arrows to work in a similar manner. If arrows are to remain mostly bleeding-based, the damage might actually need to be increased for this reason, unless you mean for arrows to be able to penetrate a body completely, which would be pretty weird. I think it would be more realistic for arrows to deal an equal mix of bleeding and conventional health damage, but at the same time, bleeding is barely a factor in normal combat and I never heard of anybody dying to bleeders sustained in melee. Reverting arrows to regular health damage with only minor bleeders would practically eliminate an entire cause of death.

There's rather few ways to really die in the ARPI engine. Kithrater made it so that minor wounds can't actually kill you, it takes a solid hit to a vital point in order to die. I can't remember exactly how he described it as the Atonement forums are no longer there, but the impression I got was that the only way to die from direct damage was to be dealt something above a moderate to the head, body or neck. You could sustain a hundred minors to your arms and legs and not die, although your recovery could take a while. And then of course bleeding, of which shooting is really the only way to deal enough damage to be deadly.

I know major changes to the combat code are outside the scope of Alpha, but it might be something to consider for the future if we move away from the distinction between melee being wound damage and ranged being bleeding damage. I'd like to see bleeding play a larger part in all forms of damage, and binding wounds redesigned completely as it's currently a bit of a joke. Then it would be fine for arrow damage to be more in line with normal hits as normal hits would then also inflict meaningful bleeding, which they currently don't.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby tehkory » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:56 pm

Much of the danger of guns was the possibility of essentially inflicting two wounds, an entry and an exit, with one shot. If a bullet merely lodged, it typically didn't do all that much damage and could be bound fairly easily.

Remember that bleeders had a scale, too. Mortal bleeders were fun. And probably fatal as snarfagle. I saw an ultrajauntmob go from three stars to none from a mortal bleeder, and I've seen spurting neckshots take someone from two to none too.

the only way to die from direct damage was to be dealt something above a moderate to the head, body or neck.

Pretty sure moderates count. Not that moderate-to-severes aren't easy to achieve.

Arrows probably shouldn't bleed even as much as a normal stabbing/cutting wound, really. I mean, the whole reason you're bleeding is conveniently blocking up the wound. 50/50 direct-to-bleeding would probably be cool.
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Re: Request: Combat How Tos

Postby Freon » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:16 am

I can say that most violent deaths are caused by the victims bleeding out.

Swordfighting? There's a reason they targetted areas that bled profusely (neck, armpits, inside the leg)

Blunt weapon? No problem. This did not cause outward bleeding but internally, yeah, messy.

Modern firearms? Heck yes. There is a reason our soldiers bring tourniquets and bleed-out kits as part of their trauma kits. (yes, every soldier brings a trauma kit) The reason they do this is because when a member of their squad gets shot, the first thing they will need to do after securing the area is... yep. Stop the bleeding.

So in my mind, maybe it might be more realistic to have incapacitations as a result of trauma happen before death due to bleeding out.

Barring a hit to a vital area of course.

Then there should be certain kinds of wounds that are untreatable.

Stabbed through the heart? You'll still live for a bit, there was this story of a girl who got shot (she was hit by a stray bullet) through the heart and she still managed to carry her little sister to safety, a few blocks away, before succumbing.

Believe it or not, even headshots, although probably as a result of luck, aren't entirely fatal. click here

This has gotten too long already. The point I'm trying to make is that it takes a LOT to actually kill a person unless you hit them in the right places and even then, those places can be covered up and protected. Personally I'd like to see more incapacitations and people bleeding to death in big pitched battles. It's why, at the end of these battles, the survivors would then begin to either treat and then capture their incapacitated enemies or finish them off.

In the end though, we'll have to abide with whatever the staff decide to code.
Freon
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Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:25 am

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