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Amount of skills

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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Letters » Fri May 23, 2014 8:41 am

For those that opt to learn the skills by simply using them, I assume they'll have to develop sole-wield, first, before they can get at dual-wield? And perhaps have to get sole-wield to at least a certain level?
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Octavius » Fri May 23, 2014 9:34 am

Formal announcement posted:
Character Creation: Considering Choices


Throttle wrote:So sole-wield and dual-wield are available again?


Yes.

toofastnig wrote:If you're going to force us to take sole-world before dual-wield, there better be several menacing varieties of giant clubs, maces and axes.


For weaponcrafters, the hilt-style determines the weapon size. Larger two-handed weapons are indeed more menacing with less speed and more damage (as before).

We also have weapon improvements that are possible - increasing the edge of axes and blades, and adding studs or spikes to bludgeons. These require greater skill to apply and also improve damage.

toofastnig wrote:Also, why is brawling an option when it's a default skill now?


It is not the default skill; that remains small-blade. From our earlier announcement:

Small-Blade - Daggers, Knives (this was switched from brawling as the default skill in the code we now use; it reflects the ubiquitous use of and basic familiarity with longknives and utility knives in daily life for Men and Orcs alike.)

Brawling - self-explanatory. Note, code now allows a more "rough" rather than urbane setting. Rooms can be flagged Peaceful to prevent all conflict, or flagged Brawling so that enforcers only get involved if someone draws a weapon.

toofastnig wrote:Also, can you edit or remove apps now, or will I have to submit a new app?


It is on Nim's list; don't know if it is implemented. If you can't, then just copy your text blocks from the old app to the new app and resubmit.

Tepes wrote:Are we going to be doing it web-based only, or will we be allowed to do chargen on the actual game itself, at some point?


No, it will remain web-only. The game mechanisms are being removed.

Tepes wrote:That being said, I like what has been done with the skills. Makes sense to me that being a warrior takes as much as being a healer/crafter.


Thanks! We took player input seriously when this was discussed a few months back.

GreenRiver wrote:Reading through this list of sample professions, there seem to be five skills listed for woodsman. Does this mean hide/sneak should count as one skill?


Nope. It just means you probably can't get there in four. :)

Letters wrote:For those that opt to learn the skills by simply using them, I assume they'll have to develop sole-wield, first, before they can get at dual-wield? And perhaps have to get sole-wield to at least a certain level?


No, I don't believe so. This governs the allocation of starting skills and backgrounds.

You begin learning any skill in-game that you can get skill checks against. Learning it in-game is still valid, but a long road based on character longevity. We're good with that.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Octavius » Fri May 23, 2014 9:44 am

I stand corrected:
Throttle wrote:You can cancel a submitted app with option 4 in the game's login menu. You can't actually delete apps through the website generator at all, not even unsubmitted ones.


:nom:

Yes, please withdraw and edit your apps if needed.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby krelm » Fri May 23, 2014 9:58 am

toofastnig wrote:If you're going to force us to take sole-world before dual-wield, there better be several menacing varieties of giant clubs, maces and axes. Also, why is brawling an option when it's a default skill now? Also, can you edit or remove apps now, or will I have to submit a new app?


Brawling isn't a default skill, unless I missed something.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Letters » Fri May 23, 2014 11:59 am

Octavius wrote:
Letters wrote:For those that opt to learn the skills by simply using them, I assume they'll have to develop sole-wield, first, before they can get at dual-wield? And perhaps have to get sole-wield to at least a certain level?


No, I don't believe so. This governs the allocation of starting skills and backgrounds.

You begin learning any skill in-game that you can get skill checks against. Learning it in-game is still valid, but a long road based on character longevity. We're good with that.

People have 'branched' style skills in no time at all. If you want to make dual-wield (I would love if it were shield use, with dual wield being super-specialized and somewhat impractical) the province of professional warriors, I honestly do think that some code should be put into place to ensure a minimum level of sole-wield - say 30 - exists, first.

I'm still really pretty leery of eight skills being an option, but I guess if total skill caps - which were incredibly high, before - are changed up, it might be okay.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Throttle » Fri May 23, 2014 12:05 pm

It has really never been an issue. If you pick eight skills, they all start so low that they're nearly useless.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Letters » Fri May 23, 2014 12:17 pm

Throttle wrote:It has really never been an issue. If you pick eight skills, they all start so low that they're nearly useless.

I suspect a few Atonement players might disagree - they're generally easy to make useful, at least if you know how the system works. Of course, if skill increases at low levels weren't so darn easy to get, I'd be amply mollified.

Edit: forage/scavenge deserves a special mention here. 0 to Master in two or three weeks. Wonky.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Octavius » Fri May 23, 2014 12:23 pm

Of course, if skill increases at low levels weren't so darn easy to get, I'd be amply mollified.

Elaborate?
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Hawkwind » Fri May 23, 2014 12:28 pm

What would the general opinion be if they were to radically lower the amount of skill points you could effectively gain? Cut them down so sharply that even adroit scan would be note worthy and a desirble for a scout?

So much that the shieldman is largely useless with his mace but dependable with tbe shield?

The Master would make the most reknowned armor of Utterby but completely dependant on the soldiers that wore it for his safety?

The swordsman that has taken a dozen orc heads in the defense of his lands but does not know how long to cook a chicken or put a chamfer on a length if wood?

My own musings see this an entirely a possitive step, more dependence on one another, more concepts to try out over different characters, stronger connections between players and above all less Hunter/fighter/craftsmen running around.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Tiamat » Fri May 23, 2014 12:45 pm

Hawkwind wrote:What would the general opinion be if they were to radically lower the amount of skill points you could effectively gain? Cut them down so sharply that even adroit scan would be note worthy and a desirble for a scout?

So much that the shieldman is largely useless with his mace but dependable with tbe shield?

The Master would make the most reknowned armor of Utterby but completely dependant on the soldiers that wore it for his safety?

The swordsman that has taken a dozen orc heads in the defense of his lands but does not know how long to cook a chicken or put a chamfer on a length if wood?

My own musings see this an entirely a possitive step, more dependence on one another, more concepts to try out over different characters, stronger connections between players and above all less Hunter/fighter/craftsmen running around.


This would be a feasible way of forcing people to specialize. That said, you'd need to balance it carefully. If you veer off in any direction from the "sweet spot", you've defeated the purpose of doing it in the first place. As it stands though, if changes weren't made to the skill ceiling, intelligence is a big factor on how high your overall skill ceiling is. Everyone else has what it'd take to be adroit in about 4-5 skills, give or take.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Throttle » Fri May 23, 2014 12:48 pm

I'd say that sounds neither realistic nor very interesting. People aren't limited to learning one or two things in life. It would just lower the overall level so the new familiar would be the old adroit and so on. In most cases, the stat setup that allows a crafting skill to go really high (beyond master) tends not to make you a particularly great warrior, and vice versa.

In fact, most of the reason people were able to become so good at many things in ARPI/PRPI was that crafts were never really developed fully so you could be a maxed out armorcrafter with your skill at adroit. Good and superior crafting was never really implemented but would have required skill levels much higher than you'd typically find in those fighter-crafters we had knocking about.

Master level in a craft was in fact extremely rare, most people couldn't even reach it because this would require stat setups that few chose. Many capped at mid-talented in weapon- and armorcrafting due to designing strong, sturdy characters. There was no reason to do otherwise there as the crafts were underdeveloped, but it seems this won't be the case here.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby toofast » Fri May 23, 2014 12:55 pm

Hawkwind wrote:What would the general opinion be if they were to radically lower the amount of skill points you could effectively gain? Cut them down so sharply that even adroit scan would be note worthy and a desirble for a scout?

So much that the shieldman is largely useless with his mace but dependable with tbe shield?

The Master would make the most reknowned armor of Utterby but completely dependant on the soldiers that wore it for his safety?

The swordsman that has taken a dozen orc heads in the defense of his lands but does not know how long to cook a chicken or put a chamfer on a length if wood?

My own musings see this an entirely a possitive step, more dependence on one another, more concepts to try out over different characters, stronger connections between players and above all less Hunter/fighter/craftsmen running around.


No, I'd rather not the system be this narrow.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Tiamat » Fri May 23, 2014 12:58 pm

Throttle wrote:I'd say that sounds neither realistic nor very interesting. People aren't limited to learning one or two things in life. It would just lower the overall level so the new familiar would be the old adroit and so on. In most cases, the stat setup that allows a crafting skill to go really high (beyond master) tends not to make you a particularly great warrior, and vice versa.

In fact, most of the reason people were able to become so good at many things in ARPI/PRPI was that crafts were never really developed fully so you could be a maxed out armorcrafter with your skill at adroit. Good and superior crafting was never really implemented but would have required skill levels much higher than you'd typically find in those fighter-crafters we had knocking about.

Master level in a craft was in fact extremely rare, most people couldn't even reach it because this would require stat setups that few chose. Many capped at mid-talented in weapon- and armorcrafting due to designing strong, sturdy characters. There was no reason to do otherwise there as the crafts were underdeveloped, but it seems this won't be the case here.


That applies for ARPI crafting, sure. I don't think it's unrealistic for a warrior-type character to train up their deflect/dodge very high if that's what they were looking for. A lower skill allocation overall would force them to ignore a lot of other skill gains to keep those skills at their peak. It don't flatten out the skills if you don't want it to, for crafting. If you need a master-level crafting skill, Adroit doesn't suddenly become the new "master".

It'd probably influence PvP and PvE a whole lot, though, as everyone would probably fight at a lower skill level, and the ones that are high above that average will shine. It'd also make NPC encounters potentially harder, as you can set NPCs past PC limits in terms of skill.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby tehkory » Fri May 23, 2014 5:47 pm

Tiamat wrote:It'd also make NPC encounters potentially harder, as you can set NPCs past PC limits in terms of skill.

Someone never met a proper Parallel RPI NPC that had 25 in every stat, something like 12 armor, and 100 in every skill, or the ARPI mob that was so good at melee combat that the only thing that killed it was the fact that there were 20 PCs there, 16 of them constantly throwing weapons at it(because it was only hit in the melee once). Despite the fact that there were 2-3 people there that, even at the time, would still be some of the top tier combatants ever in ARPI, Alpha to the end.

NPCs being set past PC limits in terms of skills, stats, and resistance will never be an impossibility. There is no dearth of overpowered NPCs able to anything and everything under the sun.

I'll let crayon go more into that though.

RE: let's lower the skillcsp, let me say this as someone who has -actually- played a PC with Peak int and someone who's played one with -poor- int. The game(in ARPI and Parallel) made sense and was appropriately easy and difficult for peak and poor intelligences.

We don't need "I forgot how to sit down but I have +300 in axes" Conan who doesn't know how to swim or climb but can slaughter his way up-and-down the coast without breathing. This is a simulation about a -frontier- people. These people are going to be hearty and competent more often than they are pathetically unable to either defend or dress themselves. These are men staring the evil and terror of the world in the face because they're arguably closer to it than Gondor is. Gondor has it easy. These people would go live in Gondor in a heartbeat. Let's not cap realistic portrayal of human beings in the head over needless, useless specialization.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby krelm » Fri May 23, 2014 9:35 pm

tehkory wrote:We don't need "I forgot how to sit down but I have +300 in axes" Conan who doesn't know how to swim or climb but can slaughter his way up-and-down the coast without breathing.


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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Hawkwind » Sat May 24, 2014 7:25 am

krelm wrote:
tehkory wrote:We don't need "I forgot how to sit down but I have +300 in axes" Conan who doesn't know how to swim or climb but can slaughter his way up-and-down the coast without breathing.


This.


My above examples where somewhat tought, yes, but hardly as extreme as that. Follow the pattern of thought though and it leads to the prevention of people getting adroit in huge amounts of skills. The more people we have able to survive independent of each other the less cohesion we have in the playerbase, That is not to say we won't have any. We have always preached that players will buy from each other when in fact that rarely happens what they do instead they band together in little groups to make it themselves. Why waste coin when instead when you can give Steven here space to practice his craft and get it for free?

RE: let's lower the skillcsp, let me say this as someone who has -actually- played a PC with Peak int and someone who's played one with -poor- int. The game(in ARPI and Parallel) made sense and was appropriately easy and difficult for peak and poor intelligences.


Well done I guess? But it has no impact on the lowering the amount of skill points as a whole

This is a simulation about a -frontier- people. These people are going to be hearty and competent more often than they are pathetically unable to either defend or dress themselves. These are men staring the evil and terror of the world in the face because they're arguably closer to it than Gondor is. Gondor has it easy. These people would go live in Gondor in a heartbeat. Let's not cap realistic portrayal of human beings in the head over needless, useless specialization.


Yes, they are by all means they are staring the Growing Threat right in the face. But they are still people, distantly cousins of the Dunedain, less than those if you will, they are no great race of Men destined to crush the threat of the Necromancer or best the goblin-men of the Mountains. Would they really live under the yolk of "mere fighting men" all sources point to them having a anti-monarchist, pro-democracy slant, but I digress.

I'd say that sounds neither realistic nor very interesting. People aren't limited to learning one or two things in life. It would just lower the overall level so the new familiar would be the old adroit and so on. In most cases, the stat setup that allows a crafting skill to go really high (beyond master) tends not to make you a particularly great warrior, and vice versa.


Hardly unrealistic, in fact very much grounded in reality my friend. Interesting? Who is to say, that is up to the beholder. Up until the previous few generations we all had a career for life and very seldom left its path once trodden down. Doubly so for what setting we are getting back to. Again you have taken my argument to its utmost extreme. Keep the skill caps as they are but make getting them up there a point. You will very rarely find a master swordsman who also is able to turn his hand to a craft that requires decades of study.

Can you really offer any viable reasons why it would not be worth a try? IF we do it in Alpha, see what happens, people might enjoy it. It offers people a chance to be really good, to be noteworthy in a game that is otherwise going to be very hard to distinguish yourself when so many great people are coming back to the game.

If it does not work out, we tweak INT and have the possible skill gains back to a higher level rather than doing it when skills get out of hand and forcing people to take a massive cut if it ever comes
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Matt » Sat May 24, 2014 7:29 am

Have you ever played in this code? It can be obnoxiously hard to get to master anything.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Tepes » Sat May 24, 2014 7:37 am

Matt is correct. Getting master is ridiculous. You don't have to worry about it.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Matt » Sat May 24, 2014 8:36 am

That was based of Atonement difficulty. Getting better in combat in the higher numbers you need specific things to happen to get a chance to go up in skill. I'm not sure we're going to have those chances nearly as much in this game.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Throttle » Sat May 24, 2014 8:41 am

Can you really offer any viable reasons why it would not be worth a try? IF we do it in Alpha, see what happens, people might enjoy it. It offers people a chance to be really good, to be noteworthy in a game that is otherwise going to be very hard to distinguish yourself when so many great people are coming back to the game.

If it does not work out, we tweak INT and have the possible skill gains back to a higher level rather than doing it when skills get out of hand and forcing people to take a massive cut if it ever comes


It's a made-up problem. Skills never got out of hand in a way that requires significant code changes. Your idea sounds like a completely pointless change that isn't really warranted by any tangible issue that has ever existed. In fact, even disregarding the codework that it would require (and which they've said they aren't doing for Alpha), a game where each PC is only good at one thing would require far more PCs in each sphere than can be expected.

There's already measures in the ARPI codebase ensuring that most people excel only at a couple of things. I don't think PCs on A/PRPI were so identical that it caused problems. A lot of people were good fighters, but this is necessary for gameplay reasons as it is the main coded activity alongside crafting, and also the primary motivation of many players. Still, inviduals were frequently known for being particularly good at one thing or antoher, and the code for skill gains and caps already ensures that a PC can't really become outstanding at more than one or two things. I can't think of a single PC on ARPI or PRPI who had a master level craft and was also an outstanding fighter. It's nearly impossible to even mold one's stats to allow this, assuming SOI is going to keep a similar model for stat-determined skill caps.

Almost everyone plateaued at talented or adroit in the skills they used regularly, it has always been very rare for anyone to even hit master (except for a few skills that were notoriously trivial to raise, like scavenge and sneak) but long-lived PCs stood out and became known as the best doctor, the best rifleman, the best electrician and so on. It's as much the player's responsibility to portray their character's expertise in their roleplay, I don't think it's worth turning the code upside down to forcibly limit people to such an extreme degree.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Letters » Sat May 24, 2014 8:43 am

Matt wrote:That was based of Atonement difficulty. Getting better in combat in the higher numbers you need specific things to happen to get a chance to go up in skill. I'm not sure we're going to have those chances nearly as much in this game.

One PC of mine hit Master Long-blade fighting a robot on the engineering deck of Atlas. Tough opponent and all. Another, with lower intelligence, hit it fighting a shredder. That confused me. Both those PCs had a bunch of other skills at Adroit or Talented, but the gains had slowed to a crawl.

Octavius: I say that because it's simply much easier, at least in my experience, to get a skill from, say, novice to familiar, than to even make the step from familiar to talented, never mind adroit or higher. That's something of a blanket statement, but, broadly speaking, I think it's true.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Throttle » Sat May 24, 2014 8:52 am

I don't think most of those requirments ever worked properly, at least not at the levels people expected them to apply. You could reach master combat skills fighting squicks in the sewers, although this was generally not realistically possible because by then you'd wipe out the entire population of squicks long before you were likely to have gained a skill point.

Same was true of scav runs, one usually didn't get enough chances to skill up unless one went out there five times a day or something (which, granted, people eventually did). It was hard to actually get to fight often/long enough to raise skills that high, that was the limiting factor for most people.

Some skills had improvement prerequisites that worked, like hide/sneak which at higher levels required that you were checking your skill against PCs, aggro mobs and things like that. If the combat ones ever worked, they kicked in at higher levels than people generally reached.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Letters » Sat May 24, 2014 9:00 am

Throttle wrote:I don't think most of those requirments ever worked properly, at least not at the levels people expected them to apply. You could reach master combat skills fighting squicks in the sewers, although this was generally not realistically possible because by then you'd wipe out the entire population of squicks long before you were likely to have gained a skill point.

Some skills had improvement prerequisites that worked, like hide/sneak which at higher levels required that you were checking your skill against PCs, aggro mobs and things like that. If the combat ones ever worked, they kicked in at higher levels than people generally reached.

Oh, they worked all right. Intermittently. One PC hit Master after sitting on Adroit for over two months, during which there was a lot of heavy fighting in Grungetown. The other - yeah, shredder.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Throttle » Sat May 24, 2014 9:07 am

I don't think that was the supposed skillup requisites at work but rather the fact that skillgains just slow down a lot after adroit. If you're unlucky, you can go a really long time without raising a skill even when it's technically possible. The stuff about "you must be fighting three enemies at once with one hand tied behind your back" never applied correctly, at least not below master level.

I checked a lot of old pfiles at one point while bored but I can only think of one PC in Grungetown or beyond who ever raised a combat skill beyond master, and that was small-blade which was supposedly coded to be easier to raise. If the requisites did work, they must have kicked in at master and not at the talented/adroit levels that most people assumed they did.

Many of the PCs regarded as great fighters often had like talented deflect and adroit weapon/style skills. Some capped there and others could have gone higher but were held back by the fact that your skills eventually have like 0.03% chance to increase and you don't get to use them as much because fights end really quickly when you're at that level.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Songweaver » Sat May 24, 2014 9:13 am

One of your PCs was very lucky, then, I'd say!

But for combatants, Master wasn't as uncommon as it was on old SOI. MANY combatants during alpha/end reached one, or even two tiers above that level. The skillcaps with this engine are just set higher, and the higher level (+Master) can be reached in consistently dangerous environments where you are frequently fighting multiple enemies at once

As Throttle pointed out, crafts were harder to reach a comparable level to, because high-end crafting was not often an option. ARPI was designed to definitely be slanted towards survival (sometimes research) crafting and heavy combat.
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