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Amount of skills

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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Throttle » Sat May 24, 2014 9:20 am

I think the code must have been different in Alpha, I'm pretty sure literally nobody ever raised deflect or a real weapon skill beyond master after Alpha. Skabor had heroic or maybe legend small-blade, that's it. Some got a few points into master on their weapon skill or dual-wield, but I don't think anyone even got close to the next level in one of the real combat skills.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Songweaver » Sat May 24, 2014 9:23 am

There were a handful of characters in the post-BETA phases that managed heroic/legendary levels in combat skills. The code didn't change, but I don't think that there were as many opportunities for those hard skill checks on the Moon due to gun-code being more prevalent and the "safe area" being comparatively safer.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Throttle » Sat May 24, 2014 9:42 am

If nothing else, a thing that changed was that you could no longer layer armor, which was a bug in Alpha. This meant people couldn't fight as long or take as many hits.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Octavius » Sat May 24, 2014 9:52 am

Songweaver wrote:There were a handful of characters in the post-BETA phases that managed heroic/legendary levels in combat skills. The code didn't change, but I don't think that there were as many opportunities for those hard skill checks on the Moon due to gun-code being more prevalent and the "safe area" being comparatively safer.



Truth. When we reached the point of adding Adroit challenges and Superior crafts on ARPI Beta, we worked out the plans (transport ship progs to newly discovered, further away biodomes and robofactories) then debated game direction and decided to go with the return to space instead. Superior crafts would have resulted in high tech factory-based items, electroweapons, and power armor, all which we had code for. Release from the biodomes would have given dangerous, larger, and flying creatures with better AI, and superior-quality bio/chem additions.

Bottom line, almost no crafts got past Ordinary levels. Hopefully we won't repeat that error jere and you'll get superior and master crafts. :)
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Matt » Sat May 24, 2014 10:02 am

You can't compare combat skill gain in Atonement ALPHA to anything else really. Armor was broken and it was common for like 5 dudes to fight like 40 NPCs. I don't think that's going to happen here. I spent a long long long time on Atonement as Bruce trying to get heroic bludgeon and it never happened. It definitely wasn't from a lack of trying.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Throttle » Sat May 24, 2014 10:04 am

I remember checking and I think you were like two points into master. Skill gains really stagnate at the master point.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby krelm » Sat May 24, 2014 12:51 pm

I also want to point out, in old SoI there was no such thing has an INT-based hardcap. All of your skills got capped based on what your attributes were, but you could feasibly cap out every single skill you had, which a lot of long-lived PCs managed to do. I don't really remember anyone complaining about a PC who'd been around for 2 or 3 RL years (which was like 4 to 12 IG years) being able to do basically everything.

I'm not sure why no one brought that up yet.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby tehkory » Sat May 24, 2014 4:49 pm

Songweaver wrote:There were a handful of characters in the post-BETA phases that managed heroic/legendary levels in combat skills. The code didn't change, but I don't think that there were as many opportunities for those hard skill checks on the Moon due to gun-code being more prevalent and the "safe area" being comparatively safer.

Definitely an exaggeration. Nobody got heroic/legendary in ARPI's beta beyond Skabor, as Throttle pointed out. And Elias was about the only one to get Master deflect ever, around 140-some days of playtime(ended up hitting like 160).

I'm going to bring this back, some, to re-address Roadhawk's points. He seems confused as to why "Int is balanced as-is" is a strong argument against nerfing total skillcaps. Int does three things. First, it increase the rate at which you learn(poor vs peak, this is balanced in my opinion. Peak is very fast, whereas poor is mind-numbingly slow.). Second, it increases individual skillcaps(this is also pretty good. Skills like medicine can't move past talented without low dex/int, representing someone who can work hard but never truly overcome their deficiencies). Finally, it raises your total skillcap. Let me toss some info out here. Now, in Atonement, the worst sre dexterity(for the stated reasons already in this and many other threads, dexterity sucks until better crafting is put in. That doesn't need to be changed, either). Strength was the best, of course, with Peak and Superhuman allowing PCs significant upgrades in damage that the other stats, at that level, did not have the same incentives. I think you'll find most of the 'best' combat PCs went that route, and it's probably not changed in SoI. So when we discuss nerfing a solid stat like int, of course there are concerns to be raised. I'm rambling, though, and moving on to my ACTUAL point, because...

If you take nothing else from this, realize that nerfing the total skillcap will hurt the game in two ways: it becomes less forgiving of alternate builds(and more damning to out-of-the-loop newbies), and it forces people to only play a certain way, reducing incentive to log in.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Saellyn » Sat May 24, 2014 5:15 pm

Wasn't Jaunt like the lead admin of ARPI? I think he would know if people got heroic/legendary skills <_<
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Hawkwind » Sat May 24, 2014 5:25 pm

tehkory wrote:Definitely an exaggeration. Nobody got heroic/legendary in ARPI's beta beyond Skabor, as Throttle pointed out. And Elias was about the only one to get Master deflect ever, around 140-some days of playtime(ended up hitting like 160).

I'm going to bring this back, some, to re-address Roadhawk's points. He seems confused as to why "Int is balanced as-is" is a strong argument against nerfing total skillcaps. Int does three things. First, it increase the rate at which you learn(poor vs peak, this is balanced in my opinion. Peak is very fast, whereas poor is mind-numbingly slow.). Second, it increases individual skillcaps(this is also pretty good. Skills like medicine can't move past talented without low dex/int, representing someone who can work hard but never truly overcome their deficiencies). Finally, it raises your total skillcap. Let me toss some info out here. Now, in Atonement, the worst sre dexterity(for the stated reasons already in this and many other threads, dexterity sucks until better crafting is put in. That doesn't need to be changed, either). Strength was the best, of course, with Peak and Superhuman allowing PCs significant upgrades in damage that the other stats, at that level, did not have the same incentives. I think you'll find most of the 'best' combat PCs went that route, and it's probably not changed in SoI. So when we discuss nerfing a solid stat like int, of course there are concerns to be raised. I'm rambling, though, and moving on to my ACTUAL point, because...

If you take nothing else from this, realize that nerfing the total skillcap will hurt the game in two ways: it becomes less forgiving of alternate builds(and more damning to out-of-the-loop newbies), and it forces people to only play a certain way, reducing incentive to log in.


Reread what I posted, none of that have I spoken against. Your arguments are strawmen. I'll say it again Total skill points are perhaps too high? The way stats are balanced are groovy, supergroovy. If you encourage a more detailed specification and you encourage engagement and interaction between players, now beware this can cause increased logs in and play times. Besides, I do not known one person who changed play styles during the game, often they retire and reroll as the stats for one 'build' are utterly opposed to those of another.

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Re: Amount of skills

Postby tehkory » Sat May 24, 2014 5:31 pm

Hawkwind wrote:Reread what I posted, none of that have I spoken against. Your arguments are strawmen. I'll say it again Total skill points are perhaps too high? The way stats are balanced are groovy, supergroovy. If you encourage a more detailed specification and you encourage engagement and interaction between players, now beware this can cause increased logs in and play times. Besides, I do not known one person who changed play styles during the game, often they retire and reroll as the stats for one 'build' are utterly opposed to those of another.

IF YOU TAKE ONE THING AWAY FROM THIS COMMENT LET IT BE THAT I CAN USE CAPS LOCK!

I'm not saying you argued against those: I'm saying you're making your arguments in defiance and/or ignorance of them. But it looks like you're less interested in understanding than you are in repeating yourself, so it's time to bow out. Your rhetoric and sarcasm aren't helpful to any sort of discourse, which is pretty sad as people are trying to be earnest with you. Anyway, you've been given the information/facts from multiple people. *steps out of the thread*

Saellyn wrote:Wasn't Jaunt like the lead admin of ARPI? I think he would know if people got heroic/legendary skills <_<

You would -think- that, you know, but Throttle's right.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Matt » Sat May 24, 2014 5:42 pm

Saellyn wrote:Wasn't Jaunt like the lead admin of ARPI? I think he would know if people got heroic/legendary skills <_<


He was head but he wasn't around for the large majority of BETA. Throttle is correct.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Songweaver » Sat May 24, 2014 5:54 pm

This side argument's not really on topic, and I don't want to keep talking about it, but will be super clear.

When I shutdown ARPI, there were active characters with combat abilities beyond Master level. It's possible. I can't speak to the portion of the game on the Moon, because I wasn't there. When I was looking through the pfiles from what I'd missed from BETA, only Skabor reached that high.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Holmes » Sat May 24, 2014 6:14 pm

Songweaver wrote:This side argument's not really on topic, and I don't want to keep talking about it, but will be super clear.

When I shutdown ARPI, there were active characters with combat abilities beyond Master level. It's possible. I can't speak to the portion of the game on the Moon, because I wasn't there. When I was looking through the pfiles from what I'd missed from BETA, only Skabor reached that high.


I think you're misremembering.

Pretty sure Bruce had the highest combat skill in the game at 77. I have the old databases, still. There were a handful of people with Master at the game's end, but I'm 99% sure there wasn't anything above it.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby crayon » Sat May 24, 2014 7:07 pm

I can't speak entirely for ARPI, but...

I don't believe anybody exceeded 75 in PRPI's lifetime, or 59 in Deflect, for that matter.

In fact, Small-Blade, doesn't seem to trigger the same requirements for upping as the other skills, which was probably WHY Skabor was the highest.

The hard-coded requirements are extremely prohibitive in most instances, and in conjunction with basal decreasing chances of gaining, the odds of bumping skills become exponentially less likely while requiring characters to be in lethal or near-lethal circumstances for increasing amounts of time.

ON THE OTHER HAND...

Kory wrote:I'm going to bring this back, some, to re-address Roadhawk's points. He seems confused as to why "Int is balanced as-is" is a strong argument against nerfing total skillcaps. Int does three things. First, it increase the rate at which you learn(poor vs peak, this is balanced in my opinion. Peak is very fast, whereas poor is mind-numbingly slow.).


Your first point, right here, is actually borderline irrelevant. Because of the nature of skillgain cooldowns, and doubly so because they're INVISIBLE TO YOU, having slightly lower cooldowns does not actually increase the RATE at which you acquire skills to any significant degree, given the general patterns and habits of the playerbase. It also really only effects the lag between individual occurrences, with very little to nonexistent bearing on the regularity of occurrences. This all probably sounds kind of complicated and really poorly explained, but let me just repeat, emphatically, that the variation of the skill cooldown timer by intelligence has a very, very minimal impact on the actual speed at which people acquire skills in any significant quantity. They might make you gain 1 or 2 skill points faster, but they don't add up in the long-term to such a degree as to be considered a significant "perk" of playing a smart character.

Kory wrote:Second, it increases individual skillcaps(this is also pretty good. Skills like medicine can't move past talented without low dex/int, representing someone who can work hard but never truly overcome their deficiencies).


Yeah, intelligence is useful in individual skill caps, and I'm sure the fine folk here have written it to be relevant and meaningful in a variety of ways in this function.

Kory wrote:Finally, it raises your total skillcap. Let me toss some info out here. Now, in Atonement, the worst sre dexterity(for the stated reasons already in this and many other threads, dexterity sucks until better crafting is put in. That doesn't need to be changed, either). Strength was the best, of course, with Peak and Superhuman allowing PCs significant upgrades in damage that the other stats, at that level, did not have the same incentives. I think you'll find most of the 'best' combat PCs went that route, and it's probably not changed in SoI. So when we discuss nerfing a solid stat like int, of course there are concerns to be raised. I'm rambling, though, and moving on to my ACTUAL point, because...


Here's where you put the nail in the coffin, really. Honestly, it's IRRELEVANT that your first point is completely irrelevant BECAUSE this is so very important. Intelligence has a very significant effect on your overall cap. Overall caps matter, and they matter more the longer a character lives. Strength is generally treated as "being absurdly OP" (and it is, relatively) but the reality is that strength has just traditionally been the only stat that really "holds its own", closely followed by intelligence, and maybe constitution. Agility's broken for some funny reasons, that I don't really feel like explaining. It's useful when it shouldn't be and it's useless when it should be. By taking away from intelligence's function with regards to overall skillcap (and it's not a ridiculous cap, really) you're a) making strength EVEN MORE DOMINANT, b) making intelligence AS USELESS AS EVERYTHING ELSE, c) not really accomplishing anything legitimate, because while maybe the do-it-all crafter is POSSIBLE with peak int, it would require MONTHS TO YEARS of grinding and INFINITE RESOURCES, and if they really put that much into it, maybe that's their right, right? I mean, it's no different from superhuman strength combat characters that dual-wield bludgeons or whatever.

If you take nothing else from this, realize that nerfing the total skillcap will hurt the game in two ways: it becomes less forgiving of alternate builds(and more damning to out-of-the-loop newbies), and it forces people to only play a certain way, reducing incentive to log in.

Another thing you should certainly keep in mind is that SoI ALREADY seems to have a MUCH WIDER selection of skills than ARPI and PRPI had. One result of this is that the cap becomes marginally weaker relatively, as the portion of the pie you could theoretically cover comes to be a smaller percentage.

I highly recommend you WAIT until you actually see the game, before you really start pushing this sort of criticism, and put more faith in the dudes that have been working on it.

So yeah, this:

Kory wrote:If you take nothing else from this, realize that nerfing the total skillcap will hurt the game in two ways: it becomes less forgiving of alternate builds(and more damning to out-of-the-loop newbies), and it forces people to only play a certain way, reducing incentive to log in.


Is true, but also:

It neuters the value of intelligence as a statistically meaningful... statistic. Which is a terrible idea given that it's one of the two ACTUALLY STATISTICALLY MEANINGFUL statistics in the game, surrounded by others that are marginally useful or utterly and direly lackluster outside of application to individual skillcaps which rarely really matters to begin with.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby krelm » Sun May 25, 2014 12:24 am

Just throwing another thing out here:

If you want to be a self-sufficient master-crafter dude, you'll need to take 3 different crafts.

For instance: Weaponcrafting requires the skill metalcrafting for the blades, woodworking for the hilts, and weaponcrafting to actually make the weapon. Armorcrafting is the same way, with different skills (I believe textilecraft, armorcrafting, and leathercraft is what one person will need to be able to craft the current armor without anyone else's help.) This was all explained in one of Octavius' posts, somewhere.

Now, let's throw some numbers around. Pretend you're playing a crafter with poor INT (I don't know why, you're the one pretending). That means you have a 500 point INT cap. So, if you want to be a semi-competent weaponcrafter, that means you'll need three craft skills at 50, which, boom, that's over 1/5th of your cap. If you want to be a master craftsman, that's 3 skills at 70, which is damn near half of your cap.

Keep in mind, that's just 3 skills, taking up a fifth to nearly half your poor INT cap. That isn't including the fourth skill you'll be forced to take in chargen, or some of the other given skills that add to your cap (IE, dodge).

So, I can't honestly remember what the original argument was before people started sniping each other even though I've been keeping up with this thread, but it seems to me that if you want to play a master crafter (or a master combatant, which is even MORE skills, when you think about it), you're sort of forced to go all-in on your specific skills, anyway.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Mithrandur » Sun May 25, 2014 5:02 am

krelm wrote:Just throwing another thing out here:

If you want to be a self-sufficient master-crafter dude, you'll need to take 3 different crafts.

For instance: Weaponcrafting requires the skill metalcrafting for the blades, woodworking for the hilts, and weaponcrafting to actually make the weapon. Armorcrafting is the same way, with different skills (I believe textilecraft, armorcrafting, and leathercraft is what one person will need to be able to craft the current armor without anyone else's help.) This was all explained in one of Octavius' posts, somewhere.

Now, let's throw some numbers around. Pretend you're playing a crafter with poor INT (I don't know why, you're the one pretending). That means you have a 500 point INT cap. So, if you want to be a semi-competent weaponcrafter, that means you'll need three craft skills at 50, which, boom, that's over 1/5th of your cap. If you want to be a master craftsman, that's 3 skills at 70, which is damn near half of your cap.

Keep in mind, that's just 3 skills, taking up a fifth to nearly half your poor INT cap. That isn't including the fourth skill you'll be forced to take in chargen, or some of the other given skills that add to your cap (IE, dodge).

So, I can't honestly remember what the original argument was before people started sniping each other even though I've been keeping up with this thread, but it seems to me that if you want to play a master crafter (or a master combatant, which is even MORE skills, when you think about it), you're sort of forced to go all-in on your specific skills, anyway.



One minor correction. Armorcraft requires 4 skills minimum to simply be moderate.

Metalcraft (once game moves past alpha most likely.Masters)
textilecraft (won't be making leather-only items.))
leathercraft
armorcraft

Weaponcraft only needs:

Metalcraft
woodcraft
weaponcraft

However, if you want to achieve real mastery it has been stated that high-end crafts (regardless of trade) will require at least some degree of artistry. This leaves armorcraft with 5 necessary skills and weaponcraft with 4.

Keeping that in mind, if somehow with super low int you still had the stats required to make mastery (70 skill) of all these crafts, that would mean that armorcraft would have a skill investment of 350 points, while weaponcraft would be at a more considerate 280 points.

However keep in mind the liklihood of you ever reaching this skill cap is slim to none as the time investment would be -way- up there, the materials will be in short supply and likely needed by multiple professions.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Octavius » Sun May 25, 2014 6:22 am

Weaponcraft and Armorcraft (as well as other serious crafting pursuits) also require Artistry. A Poor-INT craftsman will indeed hit caps. (Thanks Mithrandur, for reading my posts! :) )

We've totally redone the attribute/skill associations. We also changed some of the quirks with Agility. Make sure you read the staff announcements as some old assumptions don't count. Two big ones are:
* Agility plays a much larger role in the actions of a combatant.
* Dexterity plays a consistently-important role across crafts.
* Willpower plays a core role in how high you can push yourself for any pursuit (i.e. skill caps).

TLDR: All attributes are more important; how your concept drives your attributes can play out interesting ways, many of which are good.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Octavius » Sun May 25, 2014 6:54 am

On the idea of lowering the cap pool to force more independence...

1) Play Alpha first, then we will see.

2) Players that want to play together will do so. Players that want to be independent will still choose to be so. We value them as a valid play style.

We encourgage and strongly incentivize working together in clans ang groups with positive RP - we will continue to use this carrot and for now avoid the stick. Solo hunters living a subsistance lifestyle will remain welcome. (Solo hunting making people rich is being capped in other ways.)
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Letters » Sun May 25, 2014 6:54 am

Constitution, while presumably having no bearing on any skill cap, now governs encumbrance as well as health and stamina, rather than strength determining encumbrance? Or am I misunderstanding?
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Octavius » Sun May 25, 2014 7:00 am

Letters wrote:Constitution, while presumably having no bearing on any skill cap, now governs encumbrance as well as health and stamina, rather than strength determining encumbrance? Or am I misunderstanding?


That is unchanged. Strength sets when you are encumbered. Constitution determines how fast you get tired when moving with it. (Right?)
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby WorkerDrone » Sun May 25, 2014 7:05 am

Agility used to do that, unless that's what got changed.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby Holmes » Sun May 25, 2014 9:59 am

WorkerDrone wrote:Agility used to do that, unless that's what got changed.


They both used to do it, together.
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Re: Amount of skills

Postby tehkory » Sun May 25, 2014 12:48 pm

Octavius wrote:
Letters wrote:Constitution, while presumably having no bearing on any skill cap, now governs encumbrance as well as health and stamina, rather than strength determining encumbrance? Or am I misunderstanding?


That is unchanged. Strength sets when you are encumbered. Constitution determines how fast you get tired when moving with it. (Right?)


This attribute represents the constitution and physical make-up of your character, determining his or her overall health, stamina, and toughness. Those with a high constitution can generally wear heavier armor and travel further than others, and are able to better recover from wounds or injuries.

The latter should be changed if the former is not true. The bottleneck for wearing heavy armor functionally is -not- stamina, but instead carrying capacity/encumbrance. Encumbrance has a greater effect on your combat ability and your ability to move around than constitution/agility do, at the end of the day.

Your maximum constitution(maximum stamina)/agility(stamina spent per move) are important. Nobody's denying that, though it likely won't come up regularly unless your PC has low agility/constitution -both-...but if we're discussing the requirement for wearing heavy armor, that's encumbrance. When a large group of people are traveling, those who are encumbered will run out of stamina first, almost no matter their constitution/agility. So...if carrying capacity relies on strength still, constitution's description needs changed to avoid being misleading.
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