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Black Speech.

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Black Speech.

Postby Tiurabo » Sat May 24, 2014 4:21 pm

So I was chillin' in the Lounge with Saellyn the other day, and we had an idea that orcs should have some special words. I'm not talking profanity, really, though that could go here too. More everyday words, honorifics, that kind of thing. 'Snaga' seems like something we ought to keep from the old SOI, even if it looks like it'll just be an insulting term for a small, weak orc.

The only one we came up with at the time was 'Gadra' which translates directly as 'best of enemies'. The concept comes from the Canim of the Codex Alera by Jim Butcher, neatly encapsulated by this troper:

"Friendly Enemy: The Canim term gadara essentially means this. They even see a gadara as worth more than a friend: a friend can always disappoint you, but your gadara is always your enemy. However, Tavi and various Canim always make it a point to explain that they are still an enemy, and in a conflict will do their best to kill one another."

Example: "Fless is my gadra, snaga, so you best leave 'im be. Only one gets to gut 'im is me!"

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions? Discuss.
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby WorkerDrone » Sat May 24, 2014 8:56 pm

Interjections of contempt, words for poop and insults are the only special words an orc needs. :roll:
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby Kayube » Sat May 24, 2014 11:11 pm

I feel like we shouldn't really be borrowing terms from other stories quite so transparently, since our characters wouldn't know those stories. The general idea of expanding on the language works, but it has to be done carefully so we don't sound like the orc equivalent of those terrible anime fanfics that throw random Japanese words in when the character could just use English. Of course, a lot of it would depend on the character and what sort of language environment they learned to talk around.

I found an interesting list analyzing the Orc language from the Hobbit movies which would probably be pretty close to what we would be using: http://midgardsmal.com/yrksk-ordabok/ Not much that could really be thrown into sentences but it provides some good examples of the kind of aesthetic that should be used.

Also keep in mind that "Black Speech" isn't really a good term for this since Orcs don't really speak it as itself, but rather their languages incorporated/corrupted words from it and other languages.
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby Matt » Sat May 24, 2014 11:18 pm

I think adding words is a terrible idea. Or using actual black speech. How do you expect to keep new players in the orc sphere if a bunch of people are speaking jibberish? Speak how you want but do it in english.
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby krelm » Sat May 24, 2014 11:48 pm

I personally was going to use "skai," "sha," "snaga," and "pushdug," as well as a couple of throw-backs to old SoI ("slit," for female and "rut" for, ah, copulation), and basically nothing else.
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby Octavius » Sun May 25, 2014 5:56 am

If terms are used, they need to be clearly defined in the Wiki both with their own entries and also on a lexicon.

The downside of too many words is that you are creating a barrier to entry for new players. If someone can't understand what the heck you're talking about, it can be a turn off.

The RPAs will decide policy on this. If it were up to me, I'd say:
* No one is required to use these words. Typing in regular English is always acceptable, and all players should act as such.
* If players are enjoying using some jargon, it is all properly defined and indexed for people to be able to learn.
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby Saellyn » Sun May 25, 2014 8:52 am

Our intent wasn't to force anyone to specifically use the words at all, and to have a lexicon and whatnot for the words if anyone got particularly curious. Since orcs do corrupt whatever language they speak, it's not uncommon for one orc to use a word that another orc wouldn't have any idea he was saying. Something to consider.
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby Jeshin » Sun May 25, 2014 8:54 am

If individuals or groups want to use slang and it happens to catch on that's one thing, but oocly agreeing and sanctioning certain words for use is probably not needed. There's a certain line between flavour and unneeded hassle.
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby Khamul » Sun May 25, 2014 11:26 am

True. Also, as Kayube mentioned, borrowing things from other sources is probably a bad idea for a number of reasons. Some authors are touchy about their things being used on muds, for instance, and it also opens the door for people to draw other things in from that same source that don't necessarily fit into the world. Even the concept doesn't quite fit, I think... from your quote, 'gadara' are worthy of a great deal of respect, and orcs don't really tend to respect things so much as hate and fear them.

Also, Jeshin, a possibly random question, but I've only come across the name Jeshin once before, also in the mud community. I'm aware it's a real name and is used elsewhere (I Googled it, you see), but... I've never happened across it before. Would you by chance happen to have done Wheel of Time-related mudding, or is this just chance? [/derail]
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby hobbitboots » Sun May 25, 2014 3:32 pm

I bet I know where he's played before... my guess is he played a trim, russet-haired youth once upon a time. ;)
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby Jeshin » Sun May 25, 2014 3:34 pm

I did send a PM, but since more than 1 person has brought it up.

Yes I am Jeshin from Armageddon also probably most well known for Elrum Irofel (twice removed). But I am also Jeshin from TSOSmud where I staffed for a better part of a decade as a storyteller.
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby Icarus » Sun May 25, 2014 7:09 pm

Keep in mind that, in our period, Black Speech is not widely used. Orcish, as it is, may have a variety of slang and such, but these should be understood as two very different languages.

So, while Snaga no doubt will be used, it should never be understood to be part of the "language of Mordor" and such and such. A slang remnant of a time long past that still perhaps exists in the world.

Old SOI of course made Black Speech much more common that it canonically was, so keep that in mind as well. What language is then used in Dol Guildor and other such places of evil then? Why, most likely Orcish or the Common Tongue!
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby Tiamat » Mon May 26, 2014 9:43 am

All I've gotta say is, why do orcs have to talk like Warhammer orcs? They never talked like that in the books. ._.
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby MackDazzler » Tue May 27, 2014 5:31 am

Tiamat wrote:All I've gotta say is, why do orcs have to talk like Warhammer orcs? They never talked like that in the books. ._.


I agree with this. I've seen orkish players being goaded for speaking too properly, on the other hand I've seen orkish players butcher their speech so badly you can barely understand it.
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby Saellyn » Tue May 27, 2014 9:00 am

Nobody should be goading anybody for speaking properly or butchering their speech so badly that you can't understand it. That's technically poor roleplay.
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby hobbitboots » Tue May 27, 2014 9:58 am

Mmmmm.... I think it can be appropriate if done correctly.

One player using their PC to obliquely make fun of another player is inappropriate.

One PC that makes fun of another PC for how they talk is fine. Pretty sure everybody learned at a young age that making fun of how somebody talks is one of the most basic insults, right up there with how they look, dress, social class and pretty much anything that makes one person different from the next.
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Re: Black Speech.

Postby Icarus » Tue May 27, 2014 10:25 am

If folks are speaking like goblins and orcs did in the Hobbit and LOTR, then I'm happy.

Differences in dialects can no doubt be attributed to the wide and ranging varieties of the Orcish language.

"Hush yah stupgut snaga, ah'll b'stickin' m'blade eh'yeh'poop'ole."

"Shut up runt, I'll shove this blade up your arse."

Those are the same thing, in the same language, just in different dialects. That's how it should be seen IG as well I'd think.
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A mutilated little orc murmurs, nodding as he mutters,
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