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Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Songweaver » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:57 pm

I think Jeshin's post nicely approaches what my outlook is on the concern over people using clans to acquire a stranglehold on power in a sphere. It's appropriate in some settings, and less so in the human sphere that SOI's setting us in.

I wanted to respond to a valid concern of Brian's as well, from the other thread.

It can also be a group of the "best" (using the term loosely, but it does seem that there tends to be consensus favorites at times) roleplayers who come together to play a family or group. This doesn't upset power balances so much as it leads to these roleplayers, because of their ties as friends/relatives etc. spending most of their time together, and one of their primary role play focuses being to interact with each other. When this happens, since there is only so much time and attention to go around, other players, fringe players, new players, etc. get less interaction with this group. It leads to a feeling of cliquishness in the game, and often resentment. SoI has definitely had problems with people feeling like there are IG and OOC cliques in the past and it can divide the playerbase.


This is a legitimate danger. The answer is in those "good roleplayers" being aware of this, and doing what they can to be inclusive towards other players. Despite that I'm doing exactly what he posts about above, I know that that is my goal. I want to create something vibrant that stands as an example to other players, but also is inclusive towards other players and creates meaningful interactions. If you approach your goals with that mindset, you can do a lot of good.

I'll use the Earmhyde in Angost as a positive example here. This was a clan that did not fit in with the rest of the sphere (because, they were basically criminals gang-pressed into military service to protect the town). They certainly had their own culture that was private, but their presence and interactions with the rest of the sphere were often very positive in creating meaningful conflict and stories. And, despite often having some of the stronger combat players in their clan, they never attempted to make a grab for power or step beyond the limitations set upon them, because they were designed the way that they were designed.

Addendum: I do think that a lot of the fears set forth by players like Throttle, et al, are immediately mitigated by the game having two spheres with vastly different play-styles.

The types of players who are all about grabbing power and lording (which certainly, IMO, has its place) are going to be much more likely to play in the orc sphere as that type of play is literally built into the culture.
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Octavius » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:21 pm

Posts are all relocated to this thread.

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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Olthadir » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:15 pm

A lot of what I am reading in these threads is people being upset about one clan/family hogging all the power/resources/spotlight. I think that is what the issue is.

Another thing I read is how it destroyed certain clans, especially the Vanguard, and perhaps other organizations.

From what I've read about how the game is being set up, economically and politically no one, regardless of OOC hook-ups and family affiliation will have any power over anyone else unless they want to (like a parent-child relationship). Everyone is starting out as an outsider being brought into the spheres for some reason. I've done most of my reading on the human side, so I apologize for not being as savvy on the orc side.

A family coming into Utterby will be in the same boat as an individual economically and politically. The only real difference is that they don't know anyone when they arrive. As far as I'm concerned that isn't an issue - that's a story starter. There shouldn't be any issue with that.

As time goes on, I think people fear families taking over certain aspects of business and resources, and especially keeping others from RPing with them, causing cliques and ostracized characters.

With the economic system the staff have set up, I don't see this being an issue. If a family takes over the woodcutting industry, so what: happens every day in RL. They still need food, materials for their goods, help on their land and most importantly, people to buy their goods. With all the talk on no NPC buying and selling, people need to seek out RP.

When I started playing SoI way back in Minas Tirith I was new to the RPI scene and knew no one IG. I was an outsider. But with some RP, patience and even some initiative I was able to grow my character into a decent respectable member of MT, and eventually claim ownership of the Battered Shield. There were times when the clans I was a part of (made up of people I didn't know outside the game, and the only reason why I was a part of the clan was because of IG reasons) were disbanded for any number of reasons and I was left fending for myself. I slogged through using a friends kitchen to make food for catering events to make money.

I've never had a bad experience in SOI with people abusing power or hoarding. I've been met with open arms and friendship from people who I didn't know, never saw and was simply a line of text to. My characters ambition was small. I never wanted to be powerful or rule, or be rich, or win wars. Even when I accomplished my goal of owning a tavern, what then? I had to run the tavern and seek out new friends and acquaintances to help me run the tavern.

I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that this game, and games like it are special. They are not meant to be won or lost, but are meant to tell a story. I have a story to tell because I lost more than I won.
Also, we as players have a responsibility to create RP. I played for about four or five years (I don't know how long exactly) and participated in nearly zero staff events. My character was never given anything by the staff or treated specially in any way. I had more things taken from me because I felt I didn't need it or deserve it than I had! All for the story.

If we don't go out and make RP for ourselves, what fun is the game? It will be a mess of arguing who is more powerful than who. And you know what, maybe it happens, and maybe someone becomes more powerful than you. Enjoy it. Play with it. Make RP out of it.

I believe that the staff is going to try very hard to make the game as fair as possible. But it will change. We are talking about a world with an economy and politics. We are talking about humans pretending to be humans. There is always going to be a power struggle. There is always going to be someone with more coin than you, better armour because of their daddy or maybe they get a job because of the family business. That's real life. And I know we don't want to play real life, which is why the staff is here to try to balance things out.

If a clan/family doesn't want to RP with you, then they will probably not last long as they are going to be shooting themselves in the foot, harming them economically and probably politically. They will be seen as the family that doesn't want to deal with other people, and the story will spread.

I'm rambling here, but I want to say this is a game about making a story and we should treat it as such. If we remember that we are responsible for making things happen RP wise, then maybe things will work out better. Might not fix everything, but it might be enjoyable.
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Letters » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:36 pm

Er. I didn't say that it destroyed the Vanguard. I just said the Vanguard's a great example of where joining a major clan essentially crippled a PC despite the conceit that they were meant to be professional soldiers - the unit based at Cair Andros was poorly paid and poorly equipped and saw little action.

Other than that, a lot of what is being referenced is from ARPI/PRPI, which this incarnation of SoI is likely to be closer to, setting notwithstanding, than it is to old SoI, solely by dint of scale and the way the updated engine works, even if the setting's different. I'm reluctant to give specific examples of families going wrong or being poorly received by a number of players (regardless of the intentions of people who were playing family members) without explicit permission from people who played various characters, as, I imagine, are others, so it will have to remain vague.
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Icarus » Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:03 pm

It happened in the past, and it may in the future, but at least we will have a game open, for the first time in 4 years.

It won't be perfect, but when was SOI ever?
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Hawkwind » Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:10 pm

Icarus wrote:It happened in the past, and it may in the future, but at least we will have a game open, for the first time in 4 years.

It won't be perfect, but when was SOI ever?


There is a different culture affiliated with all the games mentioned in this thread. With hope, SOI's history of inclusive Rp and rare clan vs clan (in the same sphere) will prevent the worst aspects of rpis from appearing.

If we all keep in mind that we all have a great want to see the game thrive and grow, things wont be as bad as we doomsayers are worried about. Like ive said before, it is the players that ultimately set the level of roleplay, staff can only watch!
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Sybelle » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:32 pm

Full disclosure: I'll be playing in a family group at launch, so long as staff okays it.

Generally I agree with everyone, but I want to emphasize that the theme and nature of SoI's RP should be a limiting factor in how much abuse families can manage.

ARPI had its problems with day-one families and cliques, but at the end of the day everyone had to cooperate (even the rival gangs) if they wanted to leave the walls. This mitigated the power of families/cliques, and made it so that even individuals could tag along and be a part of things. ARPI, in this sense, was a fairly collaborative theme out of necessity, despite the tensions between the gangs. Because the major conflicts were with NPCs, the harm was somewhat mitigated.

Contrast with Haven, which is an RP environment based around player-to-player antagonism. After their reboot, a group of 4-8 players created an extremely convoluted family backstory to explain why their vampire/werewolf/demigod/faeborn/etc. characters were all going out of their way to help each other. They quickly rose to fill every (or near enough) leadership position in that faction, whether they intended to or not. Unsurprisingly, that faction dominated the early game and destabilized things a good deal.

This isn't an instance of family groups dominating the game. It might seem like it on the surface, but it's not, because even before the reboot two of the three factions were dominated by OOC cliques. Characters in top ranks would literally die, their player would reroll, and this new day 1 character would fill the same leadership position and join the same social circles as the old one. Those same OOC cliques are almost certainly the ones that made that major family clique in the reboot, and would have cooperated whether families were allowed or not.

Ultimately, it boils down to the sort of game that the SoI staffers want to make. No amount of family restrictions are going to stop a few people from dominating the game if the SoI staffers turn a blind eye to blatantly OOC cooperation. In that same vein, so long as they're dedicated to ensuring that the game stays generally cooperative within their sphere and in line with the theme, they probably don't need any rigid restrictions on families.

TLDR; Any restriction can be circumvented. It is up to Staff to foster collaborative play.
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Octavius » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:52 pm

Olthadir wrote:I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that this game, and games like it are special. They are not meant to be won or lost, but are meant to tell a story. I have a story to tell because I lost more than I won.
Also, we as players have a responsibility to create RP.



I can't emphasize how important this statement is. Thank you. As long as we have players who think, and play, in this manner, then everything else will work out.

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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Brian » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:19 pm

I'm not at all concerned about game breaking abuse or people becoming too powerful in the game; my only concern is from the RP side of things. If someone is already your brother and life long best friend when you roll in, it means that I am much less likely to be able to fulfill that role through IG interaction. Now, there's no way to say that I would have been able to slot into that niche if you hadn't rolled in with someone filling it, but I want to at least have a crack at it!

The other thing about these roles is that they're usually super solid because the players OOCly like each other. This means that the relationship between the characters is, partially, influenced by the fact that you and the player behind the character are friends. This doesn't necessarily, but can, influence your IG relationship. The way that your characters interact isn't exclusively based on IG events and interactions, but also on your OOC interactions.

This is what I liked so much about old SoIs zero tolerance OOC communication policy. Every character that I met, developed a relationship with other characters based entirely on IG events. I would send and receive hobbitmails saying how much I enjoyed something, but it was all about the character to character interaction which was awesome.
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Kayube » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:27 pm

But that puts some restrictions on exactly what kind of family relationships you can have with other PCs. In order for a family to be established for the first time in-game, the characters would have to not have had enough of an impact on each others' lives to be mentioned in their backgrounds.
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Olthadir » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:08 pm

I find it hard to believe an entire town with no family members within it. I'd rather play an RPI where there are at least some families other than NPCs and Staff NPCs to reflect that.

Also, for the record: I don't know anyone here outside SOI. I don't communicate with anyone here outside SOI. The only way I communicate with people is on this board, through PMs and the portal. I am going to join a family and have been in conversation with people that I have never met, let alone played with in the past. I think one of them played during SOI when I did, but I don't know who they played. The majority of people I'm going to be a family member with I've never played with before.

I know a lot of people don't play like that. I understand where people get concerned because there is a lot of OOC communication. I'm taking a risk joining a family with people I don't know. All I know is their usernames. But I'm willing to take that risk.

I guess I'm an odd one, not part of the majority that can ruin experiences in games like this. I don't want to exclude anyone from RPing with me.
In fact, I'd agree with a lot of what people are saying because when I did try to RP with other people of other clans and groups they wouldn't reciprocate the RP with my character because I wasn't good enough, or known, or was of no use to them, or whatever reason their character had. And my character was the shy one!

Again, I go back to the onus of the player, whose job it is to make RP for themselves. If you go out and look for it and no one is willing to RP with you, go somewhere else, or make them come to you. Clans or otherwise don't really have a say in that. Sure it can make the matters worse by making cliques, but if that's the way people want it, so be it. I'll still be around trying to RP with people regardless of if they are my family or not.

And Brian, even if I had six brothers, a loving mother and father and three sisters, I'm sure your character and my character can get into things that would cause me to think of you as another brother to me. Because I'm willing to do that. Besides someone in such a huge family like that, whats stopping them from saying: gee, this guy is so awesome I wish he was my brother! I've done that in RL.

So, at the very least, think of me as the exception to the rule. Otherwise, everyone else, think about how we are going to play. If we are all brooding unsociable types, it's not the fact there are clans and families, it's how we play the game. (not saying that the character who needs trust to be earned isn't bad... you can still RP regularly with someone and not trust them. I know my character did a ton more RP with people he didn't trust.)
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby caellyndria » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:37 pm

Icarus wrote:It happened in the past, and it may in the future, but at least we will have a game open, for the first time in 4 years.

It won't be perfect, but when was SOI ever?


This please. I'd really the forums not be cluttered with a bunch of misgivings based on bad experiences with other games already... we're not playing yet! There are a lot of valid opinions and arguments, but c'mon, it's a game. If it becomes an issue that makes for rampant abuse in the future, well then, go for the I-Told-You-So's. But even then, I guarantee it's more of a matter of OOC communication and powergaming, not shared IG backgrounds.

Also, like Olthadir says, it wouldn't make sense for people to just roll in alone, townwide. People generally move with other people.
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby LuckyV » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:48 am

I want players to make families. Those are nice to have around and adds to the atmosphere of the game.

Players will band together. Sorry, scratch that. Players HAVE banded together.

This is not the first time an RPI opens and there are few of them. A lot of the people here have been playing IG and communicating OOG for over TEN RL YEARS.

The staff cannot restrict and/or punish the players for OOC communication unless the result of that communication was bold, evident and simply put distasteful.




What Icarus said in his few words actually means a lot.
Abuse, twinkery, power hoarding will happen and it will be aided by people banding and arranging it OOCly.




But the staff will control it so the game can be enjoyed by all.




What I want to see: When (I think Kithrater) made a Tolkien game which was not SoI, and was based in long long times before the original SoI, there was an NPC attack on a PC run town. The staff created a post which they posted IG and on the Forums as welll.

THE POST had the description of the attack and battle as well as outcome. But MOST IMPORTANTLY it had PLAYER CHARACTER NAMES in it. The post actually described what PCs did, naming them. Heroic and human(cowardly) acts. And not just the PCs who are always at the highlight of attention but the little ones too, those who largely go unnoticed.


This public recognition and attention from the Staff remedies everything. Including twinkery on family side, RPP issues of all sorts and the rest.

I could explain how but I believe it is too obvious.

It does however bring a workload for staff on the downside.
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Zargen » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:42 pm

I do remember that RPT on Kith's mud. As you said we where all more or less mentioned and I couldnt help but feel a little pride when I saw mysoandso PC felled many orcs with his throwing axes.
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Frigga » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:31 am

Let me first say, I'm not really in any position to comment about what enfolded on ARPI/PRPI as far as family groups go, my exposure and experience with either game was short-lived and rather limited. So, I'll accept that things happened everyone wasn't happy with, which leads to concerns about similiar things happening here on SOI in the future.

That would be particularly bad in Utterby where everybody who isn't part of a family has to start out as an absolute nobody without any kind of support. The absence of any clanned roles makes families comparatively much more impactful. Instead of a few crews starting out in a town where 70% of the playerbase gets the same kind of support from their clan of choice, it'd be crews starting in a town where everybody else has nothing at all


Part of this might come from me not being more clear in available documentation about roles in Utterby. To clarify, there are no coded roles one can automatically pick during chargen at the moment, no - that part of the new character generation system is still a work in progress. :D

However, there will indeed be roles for people in the three major clans - the workers of the Ironwood Inn, the Lumber Lodge, and the Guard. And I'd imagine that yes, 70% (or even higher) of folks will join one of them.

People who have opted to make family groups are thus required to fit in with one of the pre-existing clans or to take the independent route. No additional bonuses, equipment, or incentives are offered. There are at present no player houses (people have the option of clan housing or paying to stay at the Inn), nor are there storefronts for players that aren't connected to the main clans.

I touched upon this in the original discussions on economy, noting that the big moneymaking and trading venues should be geared towards the main clans. The game itself should ensure that the clans that are meant to be the biggest and most important groups in the sphere actually are.

In such a case, the staff has to be aware that the main, NPC (staff animated) clans should hold the major sources of revenue/resources/commodities, perhaps not circum-ultra and entirely but in majority. People who really badly want to get a steel sword or helmet or whatever should probably be able to do so, but it should be really really aggravatingly hard.


This is the intention, and the economy is being designed accordingly. In short all the clans are built to work together to ensure the prominence and financial dominion of one family - that of Gararic, Master of Utterby. He has little interest in another family looking to overthrow him actively or passively and active action in that direction would likely get people thrown out of town.

All that being said, I'll work on posting some more info on Utterby's clans and connected roles to be filled. Thus if people would like to express interest in those before commencement and opening, they can (by PM or email to me. :D)
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Letters » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:40 am

That RPT on Lost Tales was superb - I remember it and that post quite well. So was Lost Tales in general, really, from what little exposure we all had to it.

Also, hey, three clans with distinct, separate purposes. Cool. ARPI/PRPI, we mostly had the two or three clans that did all the things, and one clan that did some of the things, with extra drugs and sex. And family groups apping into a clan could have a major impact on it.
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Songweaver » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:55 am

I think that folks shouldn't hear the word 'family' and immediately mind-jump to PRPI/Atonement BETA. In Grungetown, the "families" were really more like mob families. That was the setting. I don't think folks are creating mob families here.

I was never a big fan of the mob family set-up on Atonement, either. I always preferred the no-NPC clans of ALPHA/OMEGA, with the setting more fantasy sci-fi/horror, than the Post-Apoc shoot'em-up period in the mid-game. Probably, because I had more to do with the design and execution of the beginning/end. :p

But that's a tangent. I really wouldn't be worried that this thread is going to encourage human sphere mob families. It's just not setting appropriate.

Also, Lost Tales of Beleriand was very cool. If Kithrater had had more folks helping him with it, and it hadn't launched the same time as Northlands, it probably would've rolled longer.

But, without Lost Tales of Beleriand being developed into the Atonement engine, we wouldn't be patiently waiting to play SOI with the extension of that engine now!
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Letters » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:09 am

I mean families within families. I suspect most people who played PRPI remember the Jalthans? They had a genuinely cool idea, but also an almost disproportionate impact on the game until they were finally cut loose from the New Guard. That was all IC and well-intentioned, and still had a massive effect that three otherwise unaffiliated individuals would not have had.

Don't forget the whole "Superfriends" thing either (I was playing one). That core group of Survivors was pretty low-key for a while, then it was just one of them left, and she stopped being so low-key, then another reappeared, then another, and #4 came into game, too, and through various events, again totally IC, held a disproportionate amount of clout (and they weren't even clanned!) that really seriously didn't go down well with a number of players.
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Songweaver » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:14 am

I missed the "Superfriend" period that folks talk about, but do think that this setting will naturally be more co-operative, in part because we have a human sphere and an orc sphere. IMO, it's set up more like Northlands or Osgiliath than Grungetown.
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Brian » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:10 am

I think the Superfriends thing shows that it is likely to happen one way or another as well; I don't believe that any of the superfriends really came into the game together, or planned to partner up and fight crime wherever it was found, but IG events bring certain types together and it just happens. Some of us might find it more palatable when it happens through IG scenarios, but it does tend to happen all the same.
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Re: Family Roles & Shared BG Discussion Thread

Postby Throttle » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:20 am

There's nothing wrong with people forming groups, and I don't think the "Superfriends" fall into the category of twink crews that caused problems early on. Experienced players will tend to get together and typically have a bit more clout than their numbers warrant because they know how to play the game effectively and keep their PCs alive for a long time, which is natural.
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