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Weaponcrafting and firewood

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Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Mithrandur » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:47 am

Right, from my own view, not sure if it's the same for the orcish side, but I'm already starting to feel that weaponcraft is using -way- too much firewood in all of its crafts. Where before it used to rely on a lit forge, not every step is using up an entire bundle of firewood to progress which means that even making a single weapon can practically drain wood stores in no time flat.

I understand there needs to be some sort of sink when it comes to the trade, but when the crafting timers are already annoyingly long, when you have to fork out 1 bundle of firewood to make an axe head, and then 3 more just to sharpen it, it gets rather expensive fairly quickly.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Throttle » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:55 am

Yeah, the requirment of a consumed bundle of firewood needs to be changed to just needing a lit forge in the room, and then a craft to light the forge in a manner similar to hearths and such. Forge-related crafts go through an utterly unsustainable amount of firewood, especially given the sheer time it takes to collect the stuff. Alternately, let us actually chop wood into firewood.

Also, one thing SOI used to have which helped immensely with the tedium of collecting firewood was a group craft to collect actual bundles of firewood instead of sticks. It required three or four people and cost a fair bit of stamina so it couldn't just be spammed endlessly for inifinite easy firewood. Currently it takes like 10+ minutes for a person to gather just one bundle of firewood via sticks, which is really too much for such a boring activity.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Icarus » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:06 pm

Agreed.

In the meantime, I have made it so that it is a 20 second craft, instead of a 50 second craft.

That means you can get a bundle in two minutes.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Mithrandur » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:14 pm

Throttle wrote:Yeah, the requirment of a consumed bundle of firewood needs to be changed to just needing a lit forge in the room, and then a craft to light the forge in a manner similar to hearths and such. Forge-related crafts go through an utterly unsustainable amount of firewood, especially given the sheer time it takes to collect the stuff. Alternately, let us actually chop wood into firewood.

Also, one thing SOI used to have which helped immensely with the tedium of collecting firewood was a group craft to collect actual bundles of firewood instead of sticks. It required three or four people and cost a fair bit of stamina so it couldn't just be spammed endlessly for inifinite easy firewood. Currently it takes like 10+ minutes for a person to gather just one bundle of firewood via sticks, which is really too much for such a boring activity.


I think the ability to convert logs directly into bundles of firewood (no idea how much seeing as how the blocks have the potential to make a ton by themselves via failed crafts/craft byproduct) would almost completely subvert this issue given the fact that people are bringing in more logs than bundles of firewood as is.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Throttle » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:17 pm

The whole thing is a bit barebones at the moment. Finding trees is trivial and the craft to chop them down has no timer, so the only bottleneck is actually the fact that they weigh like 200 and have to be carried back one by one, which is too tiresome to do repeatedly. SOI used to use charcoal instead of firewood for smithing, which I think is more appropriate in terms of realism, and the bottleneck there was the timer on the charcoal-making craft.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Mithrandur » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:21 pm

Throttle wrote:The whole thing is a bit barebones at the moment. Finding trees is trivial and the craft to chop them down has no timer, so the only bottleneck is actually the fact that they weigh like 200 and have to be carried back one by one, which is too tiresome to do repeatedly. I think SOI used to use charcoal instead of firewood for the forge, which I think is more appropriate in terms of realism, and the bottleneck there was the timer on the charcoal-making craft.


Even then it wasn't much of a bottleneck as one piece of coal would keep a forge going for a few ig hours (if not a full rl hour) which meant almost all the forge work could be done in one sitting, rather than chugging through piles of it repeatedly
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Fatherandy » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:22 pm

I like the use of firewood - wood is the most plentiful thing in a lumber town; I'm surprised if it were a bottleneck.

I disagree on requiring "a lit furnace" - on most of these crafts, the wood is the only "Cost" for doing it. There needs to be something consumed before the skill check which is lost on a failure. That's a needed design element for people working the skill for improvement.

If people can spam a craft endlessly, failing it until their skill goes up, and it consumes nothing, that is bad for the game. A bundle of firewood is a minor but needed cost.

Mithrandur wrote:I think the ability to convert logs directly into bundles of firewood (no idea how much seeing as how the blocks have the potential to make a ton by themselves via failed crafts/craft byproduct) would almost completely subvert this issue given the fact that people are bringing in more logs than bundles of firewood as is.


This makes total sense. I'm surprised the game opened without a craft to turn logs into firewood.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Mithrandur » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:31 pm

Fatherandy wrote:I like the use of firewood - wood is the most plentiful thing in a lumber town; I'm surprised if it were a bottleneck.

I disagree on requiring "a lit furnace" - on most of these crafts, the wood is the only "Cost" for doing it. There needs to be something consumed before the skill check which is lost on a failure. That's a needed design element for people working the skill for improvement.

If people can spam a craft endlessly, failing it until their skill goes up, and it consumes nothing, that is bad for the game. A bundle of firewood is a minor but needed cost.

Mithrandur wrote:I think the ability to convert logs directly into bundles of firewood (no idea how much seeing as how the blocks have the potential to make a ton by themselves via failed crafts/craft byproduct) would almost completely subvert this issue given the fact that people are bringing in more logs than bundles of firewood as is.


This makes total sense. I'm surprised the game opened without a craft to turn logs into firewood.


Except failure also includes loss of metal. The fact you burn through wood -and- metal is already reason enough not to spam beyond your means. But the oppressive wood cost just makes crafting in general a pain.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Fatherandy » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:41 pm

Mithrandur wrote:Except failure also includes loss of metal. The fact you burn through wood -and- metal is already reason enough not to spam beyond your means. But the oppressive wood cost just makes crafting in general a pain.


It looked to me like it produced scrap? So it downgrades the metal quality, but doesn't consume it, if the metal scraps can be recycled.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Mithrandur » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:51 pm

Fatherandy wrote:
Mithrandur wrote:Except failure also includes loss of metal. The fact you burn through wood -and- metal is already reason enough not to spam beyond your means. But the oppressive wood cost just makes crafting in general a pain.


It looked to me like it produced scrap? So it downgrades the metal quality, but doesn't consume it, if the metal scraps can be recycled.


They cannot. Or if they can, it's a craft I have not yet found.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Fatherandy » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:13 pm

Mithrandur wrote:They cannot. Or if they can, it's a craft I have not yet found.


Are they going to implement the Firebreather objects for that?
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Throttle » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:26 pm

Not that I know of. They don't exactly match the setting.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Onasaki » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:59 pm

While we're talking about weaponcrafting...

Are bows considered woodcraft? Or can you branch into bowmaking with fletching?
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Onasaki » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:14 pm

Are Ingot molds supposed to be consumed in metalworking crafts?

You'd think you'd be able to re-use the molds, more then once.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Mithrandur » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:31 pm

Onasaki wrote:Are Ingot molds supposed to be consumed in metalworking crafts?

You'd think you'd be able to re-use the molds, more then once.


As the molds are made of wood (yes wood) and you're pouring super-heated metal into them, I don't think they were really intended for more than one-time use. Most materials don't take well to handling materials of that temperature, wood catches fire, many earthenwares would actually crack, and so on.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Erythil » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:01 am

The ingot mold craft also has no skill requirement and can be repeated without penalty, as far as I can tell, so it's mostly only prohibitive in terms of raw materials, not crafter ability or time.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Onasaki » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:51 am

What about hunks of ruined metal? We should have a craft to use it, or melt it back down. And yes, PLEASE remove the need for firewood. It makes making stuff tricky, especially when you fail your rolls, like 5 times. >.<
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Mithrandur » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:46 am

Onasaki wrote:What about hunks of ruined metal? We should have a craft to use it, or melt it back down. And yes, PLEASE remove the need for firewood. It makes making stuff tricky, especially when you fail your rolls, like 5 times. >.<


Yeah, seeing as how everything other than sharpening or assembling the most basic things requires amateur or higher skill level, anyone who picked more than practically the bare minimum is going to have an extremely rough time.

Even more so when you take into consideration they need to pass not one, but -two- skill checks or ruin everything.

I still stand that a craft to take felled trees (logs) and directly manage to convert them into firewood would be a good way to subvert the issues with consumption. Even if it's a timberwright only craft (since the general craft can simply gather the slow/old way) it would make a lot more sense than having 8 logs and dozens upon dozens of wood blocks littering everywhere.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Onasaki » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:28 pm

Code: Select all
Basic-metal-weaponcraft: sharpen dull-blade
Phase 1:  20 seconds
In Room (Reusable): a $metalforge0.
Held or in Room (Consumed): a bundle of firewood.
In Room (Reusable): a $metaltype blacksmith's hammer.
Phase 2:  20 seconds Beginner Metalcraft skill required.
Phase 3:  20 seconds Beginner Weaponcraft skill required.
Phase 4:  20 seconds
Held or in Room (Progressed): an unfinished $swordstyle2 blade, a
finely-layered $metaltype1 $swordstyle2 blade, a finely-layered $metaltype1
$smallblade2 blade, an unfinished $smallblade2 blade, an unfinished
$pquality4 $smallblade2 blade, an unfinished $pquality4 $swordstyle2
blade, an unfinished $pquality4 $axe2 head, an unfinished solid $axe2
head, an unfinished finely-made $axe2 head, a finely-layered
$metaltype1 $spearhead2 spearhead, an unfinished $spearhead2 spearhead,
or an unfinshed $pquality4 $spearhead2 spearhead.


How come I need wood to sharpen a blade? That seems even /more/ tedious, I'd rather just have a whetstone object, that'd make the most sense.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Mithrandur » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:32 pm

Onasaki wrote:
How come I need wood to sharpen a blade? That seems even /more/ tedious, I'd rather just have a whetstone object, that'd make the most sense.


Correction- you need wood to -progress- sharpening a blade.

Most blades need to be sharpened more than once, and wood is consumed each time. Happy deforesting.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Onasaki » Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:18 pm

Still. You shouldn't need to melt a blade to edge it.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Fatherandy » Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:27 am

If it was built following ARPI's examples, then it looks like the use of the forge for "sharpen blade" is really "finish the partially-made blade." In that context, the forge makes sense.

It probably makes sense to switch it to using the Workbench for the basic sharpening craft instead, so it just takes labor. It won't consume anything and thus has no penalty for doing it over and over when unskilled, but it is the craft that is intended for newbies to practice with most. Up to Icarus and such, though, if they want to allow newbies to work the skills at no cost.
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Onasaki » Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:30 pm

So, I'm getting mixed reviews here. Some weapons seem to show up as better as the Serrated swords. While others show up about the same.

What affects this?
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby toofast » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:05 pm

Assemble bludgeon-with-studs is super broken
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Re: Weaponcrafting and firewood

Postby Matt » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:51 pm

Bump. The stud craft is still broken but broken in a different way now.
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